Jump to content


Raven Moon

  • Please log in to reply
110 replies to this topic

#1 kmasden


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 1,474 posts
  • Mood:stuffed
  • Monkey
  • Pisces
  • United States

Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:21 AM

The boundaries which divide Life from Death are at best shadowy and vague. Who shall say where the one ends, and where the other begins?

Mournful and Never-ending Remembrance: shining, moonlit ebony musk with benzoin, myrrh, smoky vanilla, patchouli, nutmeg, and dried red chili.

And i'm first up - this time i don't really want to be - but i know if i don't review know i'll forget to do it! I will start off by saying that i truly think this is one of those scents that everyone should try...it's special.

I'm at a little bit of a loss for words with Raven moon. It actually took me quite by surprise. I think in my head i had made this out to be foody with the nutmeg and smoky vanilla....but it isn't foody in that way at all...what i'm getting most are the myrrh, musk and the benzoin...with myrrh and benzoin vying for center stage....i'm not super knowledgeable about benzoin and tend to think of it as "vanilla" but have heard it referred to as resiny and spicy and that's exactly what i'm getting here. Although it's not spicy in the cinnamon type of way, it definately feels a bit spicy at first and i think that's due to the benzoin...

When wet it was almost overwhelming in the "wow it smells good, but almost a bit tooo rich" and i couldn't figure out if it would be wearable for me since i get headachy on very strong or perfumey scents...it also smelled just a tad soapy to me....but that spicy bit, which in the wet phase was almost cloveish to my nose, kept me very interested. I should also say, that while it starts out really strong - it really does calm down very quickly and it doesn't fall into the "gonna give me a headache category".

I think the drydown is rather lovely, it definately settles down and plays nicely with my chemistry...the overwhelming part has disappeared (within the first 10 minutes or so), the soapy bit seems gone, and it feels grounded....i can't say that i can smell a lot of the patchouli, red chili, nutmeg etc. outright...rather it's superbly blended and i have a feeling that this rich resiny goodness is truly a compilation of all elements working together beautifully. I wouldn't worry if you aren't a huge fan of patchouli, nutmeg, chili, etc...i doubt those will shout at you enough to turn you off - i think they just ground it and help it become one with your own chemistry.

After about 30 minutes it becomes just a beautiful, resiny, slightly powdery, meld with your skin so you smell interesting and beautiful...I can see this on both a woman or a man...

In short, i think this will be fantastic on some, and i suspect we'll get a lot of varying reviews on this - depending on what notes your skin amps. Hmmm, yeah, i kinda can't keep my nose off myself...i kinda wanna just snuggle up with it and stare out the window and think about life and death....

Well done!!

(i should add two things - 1) this smells entirely different in the bottle than it does on the skin and i'd consider it a bit of a morpher, so if you don't like the smell in the bottle, try it anyway! and 2) i did a normal wrist only application - not too light, not too heavy...i'm feeling like it's totally mellow and my teenager came in and went "wooahhh - that's strong!"....just a warning if you have any sensitive peeps (he's a migrainer so definately sensitive!)

#2 lookingglass


    Fragrant Flaneur

  • Members
  • 5,866 posts
  • Mood:la!
  • SotD:Picture Books in Winter
  • Nothing Selected
  • Aquarius
  • United States

Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:55 PM

<img src="http://www.bpal.org/...DIR#>/thud.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thud:" border="0" alt="thud.gif" /> Yes, yes, yes!

This IS special...and slatherable. Raven Moon has complexity, silage, and depth without being heavy. There is a sparkle when wet, almost what some would call "collogne-y", or soapy, which would be the "shine" of the musk with the myrrh. It quickly darkens, though, and all the notes blend beautifully, almost a clovey in it's spiciness; not at all a sterotypical spiciness (aka "craftstore"). The rich patchouli/vanilla/musk drydown is downright edible without overt sweetness.

If you like other spicy/resiney BPAL's (Chimera, Bengal, Cathedral, etc) it should be right up your alley. If you missed it, try Miss Lupescu-they are very similar; ML has a slight fruitiness from the almond blossom that RM does not have, & all dried out RM is just a bit bolder, rounder-sillage is medium, wearlength is nice and long.

Definitely a keeper for me.

Edited by lookingglass, 30 August 2012 - 01:17 AM.

#3 Upstart Crow

Upstart Crow

    a little too imp-ulsive

  • Members
  • 230 posts
  • Mood:blank
  • SotD:Yorick
  • Monkey
  • Leo
  • United States

Posted 16 October 2009 - 08:19 PM

You know, usually I don't smell the poetic descriptions Beth and Co. write into the scent blurbs, but this time I do. Oh, how I do.

In the bottle, Raven moon is very, very dark. I can smell the musk, the benzoin and the myrrh right away, and I immediately think, "feathers?" Yes, there is a softness to this scent that I can't describe in any way but feathers, which may remind some BPALers of the "soft fur" feel that Ivanushka gave off.

On me, the scent lightens not at all, but takes on more dimensions. I can smell The patchouli, nutmeg and chili distinctly-- the latter of which gives this blend a slight spicy feel that is by no means overpowering (if you've ever eaten Dagoba's chocolate with chilis, you'll get a good sense of how the chili note fits). I can smell the smoke and vanilla, too! Really, this is one of the only blends I've ever been able to pick individual notes out of.

As it dries, the vanilla comes out strongly with the chili and myrrh -- which is great, because I love vanilla! This is a slightly more foody vanilla than Antique Lace, please note.

This is one of my favorite Lunacies so far!

#4 hlinspjalda


    sexy swapper

  • Members
  • 578 posts
  • Mood:confused
  • Rooster
  • Scorpio
  • United States

Posted 16 October 2009 - 08:47 PM

In the bottle: Wow, I like this: warm, sweet, almost earthy. It smells to me like Schwarzer Mond light, minus the sweet note.

Wet: More vanilla than in the bottle, but still with that base. It's warm, with a patchouli-resin vibe over a nice musk. There's an unexpected almost citrusy tart note, very well blended though, maybe something green.

Twenty minutes: The musk has taken an unexpected turn; it smells a little more crittery on me than most musks. I'm also getting a definite impression of chile pepper. There's no skin irritation, but I smell something like New Mexican red chiles. There's still resin and a touch of vanilla, even a breath of nutmeg to warm things up. This is a fascinating scent!

One hour: This is delightful. It's warm, dark, a touch smoky, yet somehow nurturing. The crittery impression was fleeting, and it's long over now. There's a bright near-sweetness to this scent. I could see wearing this one a lot in cold weather.

Two and a half hours: Still loving this. It really is like a daytime, everyday alternative to my beloved Schwarzer Mond, although it's muskier.

This scent doesn't give me feathers at all; it gives me something more all-encompassing, like the Mother herself embracing me. It doesn't have a lot of throw on me, but it lasts for many hours. I took a chance on this one unsniffed, and that was clearly the right thing to do.

#5 hkhm



  • Members
  • 6,779 posts
  • Mood:d(^_^)b
  • SotD:fearful pleasure
  • Rabbit
  • Aquarius
  • United States

Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:44 PM

bottle: smoky musk with myrrh.

wet: this is like the death of autumn and mort de cesar had a love child. this is smoky, smooth, musky dark and grand. the musk and myrrh are so rich and almost creamy (must be the "smoky vanilla"). i can't describe how sinuous and lovely this scent is.

dry: a beautiful smoky, creamy finish. this is the smell of what the feel of crinkled velvet feels like... if that makes any sense...

#6 VioletChaos


    1/32 too few

  • Members
  • 2,625 posts
  • Mood:Wistful
  • SotD:The Other Hot Chocolate Proto
  • Rat
  • Capricorn
  • United States

Posted 17 October 2009 - 10:32 PM

i want to start this review by saying that i completely agree with what HKHM said: "this is the smell of what the feel of crinkled velvet feels like". humorously, i *did* feel the need to change out of my hyper-manga clothing and put on a more lace-and-velvet Victorian-style outfit right after i put this on.

it can change mood, for sure.

in the bottle, i got the Schartzer Mond vibe right off. but the BPAL patchouli note makes it's special presence known immediately too, and straight away, i could tell this was a scent that should be housed near Snake Charmer and Mme Moriarty. they are NOT all the same, but with the patchouli present, they totally have a similar feeling- dark, rich, sexy.

wet on my skin, it immediately did some morphing and the myrrh came out something fierce. i got nervous because myrrh tends to become directly baby powder on my skin, do not pass go, do not collect $200. and certainly the myrrh tried, for a hot minute or two, but once the full dry down happened, the powdery aspect vanished, thankfully. *whew*! icon_wink.gif

dry down is where all the magic happened, where this scent went from being a really good one to be a spectacular top-10 scent. the musk is rich and deep and complex, the patchouli holds it's own and they mix fantastically with the dark vanilla to become sexy, sensuous and totally drop dead gorgeous thud.gif

this will only get more amazing with age, i can already tell.
and? it's going to be *really* sought after- grab one while you can!
wub2.gif wub2.gif wub2.gif

#7 Invidiana


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 2,200 posts
  • Mood:^v^
  • SotD:All Souls' Night 1917
  • Ox
  • Cancer
  • United States

Posted 17 October 2009 - 10:40 PM

Of course, the Poe reference Beth used in the description had me snared from the beginning. wub.gif And once I had the bottle in my trembling hands yesterday, I was hoping it would be every bit the description.

It was that and much more.

I can't even begin to describe Raven Moon, it's dark, voluptuous, shadowy, enigmatic, diabolical...basically everything I'd dream of in a scent contained in this one bottle. It's deep purple velvet. It's unadulterated darkness and vampire sex. This is not just perfume; this is Edgar Allen Poe's The Raven liquefied. And it can only get even more darkly complex as it ages...

Edited by Invidiana, 17 October 2009 - 10:40 PM.

#8 13magpies


    a little too imp-ulsive

  • Members
  • 156 posts
  • Mood:Sun deprived
  • Rooster
  • Gemini
  • United States

Posted 17 October 2009 - 10:43 PM

The musk and myrrh in mine are really strong and dark. The first blast was a little overwhelming because it starts out dark, bitter, and smokey. A few minutes later, the benzoin and vanilla emerge to soften and round everything. This one morphs, shifting in between smokey, earthy, dryly sweet, and softly resinous. I was really sad that Crow Moon didn't really remind me of a crow, so I'm thrilled that this one is definitely 'raven-ish' - dark, mysterious, changeable... a slinky midnight black kind of scent. This one is probably going to be at its best with a little aging (if you can make yourself stay away from the bottle).

#9 breadwoman


    lil stinker

  • Members
  • 96 posts
  • Mood:lovin' life
  • SotD:Gypsy
  • Monkey
  • Aquarius
  • United States

Posted 18 October 2009 - 03:03 PM

Another Lunacy success! Raven Moon is soft, dry and warm -- richly mysterious. Other reviewers' mention of dark velvet is spot-on.
The vanilla doesn't overwhelm, as sometimes happens on my skin. I get more a sense of the nutmeg and chili than an actual smell.
Simply beautiful... 00001651.gif

#10 Hillary


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 2,442 posts
  • Mood:F-ing Cold
  • SotD:Burning Vulva
  • Horse
  • Taurus
  • United States

Posted 18 October 2009 - 11:35 PM

This is one incredibly unique and beautiful scent. Right off it reminds me of Mme. Moriarty, but the madic of Raven Moon is that the patchouli doesn't go crazy-like-whoa-patchouli on me. So while there is a sort of cousin-like resemblance between Raven Moon and Mme. Moriarty, they are certainly very, very different. My nose may very well be picking up the vanilla and patchouli as the similarity, but thankfully Raven Moon is so much better on me than Mme. Moriarty.

Initially this is definitely sharp and quite....hmm.....i guess pungent might be a good word. It isn't a bad smell by any means, it's just utterly different from any perfume i've ever applied. And then the Raven begins to morph. The vanilla, benzoin, and spices begin to make themselves known. I don't think i have ever experienced a true "morpher" prior to this scent, and it is an amazing sensual experience. Upon dry down i can sense the musk, vanilla, benzoin, and patchouli blended harmoniously beneath the warmth of the chili and nutmeg.

Overall: This is an amazing scent, and i agree with others who've observed that this will likely age very, VERY well. This is utterly unique, unlike any perfume i've ever smelled on myself or anyone else, in the best possible way! I think everyone should at least try this scent, just to experience it!

#11 ravenfeathers


    sexy swapper

  • Members
  • 691 posts
  • Mood:raw
  • SotD:schwarzer mond
  • Tiger
  • Libra
  • United States

Posted 19 October 2009 - 03:14 PM

for reasons which are probably fairly obvious, i didn't really give a crap what this one had in it, it was mine regardless and x2, as well. it arrived at my PO on saturday, but due to a comedy of errors, i wasn't able to get it until today. i've been, like, peeing my pants all weekend with anticipation.

in the bottle sharp, chilly, with a deep heart of resin
wet on skin musk, yes, and dark. very glossy feeling and it warms up in mood considerably. the myrrh is a bit powdery, like a skim of black powder over polished black wood. for some reason, despite the notes disparity, this is reminding me rather strongly of silas ruthyn with hints of schwarzer mond. it's quite masculine and almost cologne-y, but too dark to be truly cologne-y.
dry on skin i'm getting a... sense of the spice of the chile and the smokiness is amping, making the comparison to silas ruthyn even more obvious to my nose. the vanilla remains elusive, just adding a tiny touch of sweetness. nutmeg is reading as a very, very faint clove in this phase. the patchouli is grounding it without being a singular note at all. musk and myrrh continue to dominate.

overall, i really like this and agree that it's going to be the absolute bomb in a year or two after cellaring it. honestly, at the moment it's not evening breaking my top 10, but, as i said, i don't really care! raven moon alskfjoasjdfla!!

#12 angelicruin


    1/32 too few

  • Members
  • 3,769 posts
  • Mood:fantastical
  • Rat
  • Cancer
  • United States

Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:39 PM

This blend is amazing. It's dark and sensuous. I get smoky musk and myrrh above all else, but the patchouli and nutmeg are there in the background. I really don't pick up the vanilla or chili notes with this blend.

Dark and complex and perfect for those cold damp Autumn nights before Winter.

ETA: And, yeah, this one is going to age magnificently.

Edited by angelicruin, 19 October 2009 - 06:40 PM.

#13 thekittenkat


    singularly noteworthy

  • Members
  • 9,639 posts
  • Mood:curious
  • SotD:Samhain
  • Nothing Selected
  • Gemini
  • United States

Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:42 PM

For as long as I can remember, I've been a fan of Poe's writings. Having recently returned from the Poe Bicentennial celebrations in Baltimore, I was really looking forward to this perfume oil. (My bf is even more of a Poe fan than I am, and it was his idea that we make the trip. Needless to say I took my BPAL Poe oils with me, and wore them. He's getting his own bottle of Raven Moon and a tee to match, as this trip was one of the best ideas ever.)

In the bottle: The benzoin and myrrh are the top notes, with the musk deep down. It smells almost sparkly, as though one could scent all the shiny trinkets the raven has stolen and hidden away in its nest, from soda can pop tops to some old diamond and silver earrings, from some tin foil to a gothic choker made of nickel and pot metal.

Wet: The musk is really coming out to play, backed up by the patchouli. Also, there's a faint hint of sweetness from the smoky vanilla and the nutmeg.

The Dry-down: The musk, the vanilla, and strangely enough the chili are the most prominent notes now. Another morphing scent on me. This will be a scent that will blend even better as it ages. A year from now it should be one of the most fascinating scents to come out of the Lab. I can't wait to try this on the bf; with his wonderful skin chemistry I'm hoping that it will be even better on him than it is on me.

If there was such a thing as SN Smoky Vanilla, I would love to layer it with this.

The label's artwork is just like the tee's. Not only does it remind me of Poe's poem, but it also reminds me of The Twa Corbies, an anonymous poem from the 1600s. One of my favorite English professors read this to us in its old Scots dialect and it was thrilling yet eerie. You can find the poem here: http://www.bartelby.net/101/380.html

#14 Dark Alice

Dark Alice

    lunacy bin resident

  • Members
  • 15,048 posts
  • Mood:Anxious
  • SotD:Miller v. CA
  • Horse
  • Capricorn
  • United States

Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:15 AM

I just drove by the Poe house today. blink.gif And ironically, there were two birds..that were either crows or ravens hanging outside of the school I went to visit today as well. blink.gif Fittingly, this scent matches what I imagine their feathers would feel like and smell like. soft, dark, lightly sweet, this is absolutely perfect. This moon I will wear and wear often.

#15 Monster


    Raawwrr! Ahhh!

  • Members
  • 4,316 posts
  • Mood:Determined
  • SotD:Minotaur
  • Monkey
  • Leo
  • United States

Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:26 AM

Whenever I wear this I still feel like rolling around like a happy ferret. This is probably one of the best Lunacy blends I have ever sniffed.

Raven Moon is a dark, black musk with traces of vetiver. The red chili adds a spicy "shimmering" note to this and makes me thing of the shiny blackness of raven feathers in the night. There's a slight powderiness to this but not so much to make it unwearable (definitley not the case). This is dark, mysterious resins with spice. I wish I had purchased a back-up.

Edited by Monster, 08 March 2014 - 05:54 AM.

#16 melange


    evil enabler

  • Members
  • 299 posts
  • Mood:mellow
  • Nothing Selected
  • Nothing Selected
  • Nothing Selected

Posted 20 October 2009 - 03:45 AM

Thanks for "The Twa Corbies," thekittenkat, I can only imagine how it would sound spoken by someone who could really do the accent instead of my just faking it from the spelling! Shivery, indeed.

Raven Moon. That label artwork is amazing, even shrunk down the way it is.

In the bottle, it's high-pitched like a tenor or maybe a baritone singing at the very top of his register. On the cuff of my shirt, it's a little nondescript. But on my skin, what makes Raven Moon different than any other scent is how it develops a sort of grittiness. It's like the crushed velvet that others mentioned, or coffee grounds (though it doesn't smell like coffee), or something else with a real grainy texture. Right now, the myrrh likes to eat everything, but I'm going to hoard my bottle because I can't wait to see how it ages. icon_cool.gif

#17 EmpressPixie


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 1,014 posts
  • SotD:Raven Moon
  • Nothing Selected
  • Nothing Selected
  • United States

Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:30 PM

In bottle: Dark, smoky resins and patchoulli.

Wet: It smells like something dark and sludgy, slowly moving in the night. A little sweet, quite a bit of patchouli, a bit like raisins, musky, a little sharp, and just... dark.

Drydown: This is simply gorgeous. It's perfect for a dark night. I take everything I said about it being sludgy and slow back. Everything. It's dark, resinous, sexy, smoky, vanilla-y, light patchouli, a bit of chili. There's something incredibly bright and swift about it in its darkness. It's everything I could want in a dark, beautiful perfume. Lovely, just lovely.

#18 goblinshark


    evil enabler

  • Members
  • 401 posts
  • SotD:Gunpowder
  • Nothing Selected
  • Nothing Selected
  • United States

Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:36 PM

Unfortunately, this scent does not work well on me at all. It starts out smelling musky and grapey, and then switches to generic perfume smell and rotting mullberries on the drydown. On the bright side, it doesn't look like I'll have a difficult time finding a better home for it.

#19 CaudaPavonis


    1/32 too few

  • Members
  • 4,281 posts
  • Mood:...
  • SotD:white rabbit
  • Snake
  • Taurus
  • United States

Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:53 PM

I wish I liked the wet as much as I like the drydown.

Wet: very glossy black spiked with unmistakable chili powder and maybe pepper. Its very nice, but its not me.
Dry: the darkest vanilla ever. This, I would wear. I wish it was closer to this the whole time though.

#20 Eros


    Keeper of Anubis

  • Members
  • 1,555 posts
  • Mood:twitchy
  • SotD:Snake Oil
  • Rat
  • Leo
  • United States

Posted 21 October 2009 - 06:18 AM

QUOTE(lookingglass @ Oct 16 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is a sparkle when wet, almost what some would call "cologne-y", or soapy, which would be the "shine" of the musk with the myrrh. It quickly darkens, though, and all the notes blend beautifully, almost a clovey in it's spiciness; not at all a sterotypical spiciness (aka "craftstore"). The rich patchouli/vanilla/musk drydown is downright edible without overt sweetness.

Yes, exactly. I'm also reminded of Schwarzer Mond & Lucifer. This is dark, rich and oh so beautiful. Touches of deep black licorice & subtle clove, which remind me a bit of Spawn of the She-Demon(another love). Every single note in this makes itself known, the red chili remaining quietly in the background. There's the soft sweetness of smoky vanilla(that brings Antique Lace to mind).
Patchouli has been amping itself like mad lately but in this, just the perfect touch.

Breath-taking, seductive. Absolutely stunning. Now if I can just pry it away from my husband...

#21 Aerinha


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 1,093 posts
  • Nothing Selected
  • Cancer
  • United States

Posted 21 October 2009 - 04:10 PM

With all the resins and vanilla, I was sort of expecting a warm scent.

What I got was the scent of dark feathers and cold iron.

It's really really evocative, and perfect for the name. It's a mournful, dark, slightly cold, and metallic scent.

Given the list of ingredients, it will probably change as it ages for me. Most probably it will get warmer and sweeter as the vanilla and myrrh develop, but right now? This is a cold metallic scent that may be my rainy day scent that I could never quite find;water notes don't often *quite* work on my skin, so finding a cool rain on cement scent is probably out. I think this works well as an alternative, though.

If it does eventually turn into a warm spicy resin, I won't be heartbroken, though, as I love those as a rule.

~Edit~ about 4 hours in the scent did change over to a warm, spicy resin and vanilla scent, and it is fabulous. It's still sort of feathery. I like the way the scent starts and how it changes on me. I liked Falling leaf Moon, but I LOVE Raven Moon.

Edited by Aerinha, 21 October 2009 - 08:06 PM.

#22 Siberia


    evil enabler

  • Members
  • 310 posts
  • Mood:Normal
  • SotD:Antikythera Mechanism
  • Pig
  • Scorpio
  • United States

Posted 21 October 2009 - 11:09 PM

This is nice, but reading these ecstatic reviews made me feel like my nose was broken! I can't pick out the individual notes, I guess what I get is a sweet musk with fantastic staying power. The artwork is fantastic, and it's a nice, unusual scent, but it didn't blow me away like Falling Leaf Moon did. I'm keeping a bottle, but I don't feel like I have to hoard it. Except when I read everyone else's reviews, haha.

#23 ltrittipoe


    obsessive precious hoarder

  • Members
  • 2,036 posts
  • Mood:Póg ma thoin
  • SotD:Champagne Lace
  • Nothing Selected
  • Virgo
  • United States

Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:23 AM

Wet, there is something in Raven Moon that evokes a childhood scent memory for me. I have been wracking my brain to try to remember.... but I have no idea. But, it definitely tickles something buried in the back of my memories.... A plant, I think.

This is not a bad thing, just something I thought I would mention. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, so it is probably a plant that grew in the woods (home) or the fields (either Grandparents). I just wish I could figure it out!

As it dries, it gets sweeter and sweeter, while still retaining the spicy, plant-y feel. Completely dry, it is a spicy, very dark vanilla - I was scared of the patchouli, but it is not so prominent that it ruins it for me.

I agree with the reviewers who said this will age beautifully, although it is lovely now, and definitely works on me, I think as it ages and mellows it will be simply beautiful.

#24 ophidiae


    wrist-sniffing wench

  • Members
  • 37 posts
  • Monkey
  • Scorpio
  • United States

Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:49 PM

And once again, my quirky biochemistry rears its ugly head.

This smells like cinnamon-scented dishwashing liquid on me. I have no idea why, most of the notes are ones I've worn before with no problem at all. But for some reason, this goes all soapy on me.

Meh. I really wanted to like this one, too. icon_sad.gif

#25 Frills



  • Members
  • 58 posts
  • Ox
  • Libra
  • United States

Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:52 PM

Until it dries, this made me nervous--but once it dries it's myrrh and nutmeg and vanilla blended together so well it's almost distracting. This scent is unisex--not cologney enough for my brother, not feminine enough for my mother, but a perfect balance in between. It lasts for hours, too. I LOVE this.

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users