Are bpal blends all-natural?

[saralaughs]

I guess it comes down to worrying or at least feeling like I'm being cheated or deceived. I want to buy products from people who care about excellence, not price or prolific production of a new perfume every other day. I don't want to be fooled by creative copy. Maybe Beth is spending day in and day out in the lab dutifully mixing her own essential oils to create violet, musk, amber or sandalwood from scratch. Maybe you all are right. But the blog comments planted a pretty big seed of doubt that I'm having trouble uprooting.

 

And you will only uproot it by giving the product a fair chance and allowing yourself time to experience it.

 

I think you've hit the crux of what makes folks around the forum so defensive (and make them suspect trolling) -- I don't think most of us give a rats ass about whether anyone likes the product. It's no concern of mine what you do and don't like. But BPAL really is a community. Beth and the other lab staff are active forum members. They hang out with customers every month at will-call. We are well acquainted enough with the people who make the product to know their motivation and their passion for what they do. And they're incredibly warm and giving people to boot, so we feel protective.

 

Whether you like the product is entirely up to your own tastes. Whether you think the business owners are cheating you is something else. If you do spend some time around here, I think you'll learn better.

THIS........and we stand by a company that operates with integrity.

 

Exactly.

 

I can tell you that my favorite perfume house has donated at least $1,100 towards relief efforts for Haiti this month. How about any of the big houses? Any of the "fancier" houses? How about them? Can you tell me that off the top of your head?

 

It's called community. And caring. Beth & Co. do it all.

 

ETA: I'm done now. I'll behave.

Edited January 26, 2010 by saralaughs

[jayne]

You know, quoting Luca Turin and friends doesn't make you as snarky as the man himself.

 

What 6 blends did you order, Jayne?

 

Hah. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

And I went to makeupalley and selected ones that were popular and generally appealing: snake oil, old morocco, dorian, vixen, white rabbit, and dana o'shee.

[ephemera]

You know, quoting Luca Turin and friends doesn't make you as snarky as the man himself.

 

What 6 blends did you order, Jayne?

 

Hah. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

And I went to makeupalley and selected ones that were popular and generally appealing: snake oil, old morocco, dorian, vixen, white rabbit, and dana o'shee.

 

 

Morocco was one of my first great loves.

[jayne]

I can tell you that my favorite perfume house has donated at least $1,100 towards relief efforts for Haiti this month. How about any of the big houses? Any of the "fancier" houses? How about them? Can you tell me that off the top of your head?

 

It's called community. And caring. Beth & Co. do it all.

 

ETA: I'm done now. I'll behave.

 

 

Actually... I do know of a "fancy" perfume house that donated to Haiti, off the top of my head too. A portion of the proceeds Bond No 9's Scent of Peace always go to charity, and right now that charity is Red Cross for their work in Haiti. Before that, it went to Seeds of Peace.

 

I did a quick search and LVMH (which owns Dior, Marc Jacobs, Guerlain, Benefit, Fresh, Acqua di Parma, Kenzo, Givenchy) is a major supporter of various charities.

 

http://www.lvmh.com/fonctionalite/pg_liens.asp

Fondation des Hôpitaux de Paris – Hôpitaux de France

Association "le Pont Neuf"

Fondation Princesse Grace – Monaco

Great Ormond Street Hospital for children

Save the Children

Institut Pasteur

amfAR - Aids Research

Parkinson's Disease Foundation, Inc.

Fondation Claude Pompidou

The Robin Hood Foundation

Edited January 26, 2010 by jayne

[saralaughs]

That's awesome.

 

There is a difference though. If you don't get it, that's ok. I do and that's all that really matters.

 

I hope you saw my list of recs on the last page? I'm a huge amber lover as well so hopefully you find one that works on you.

[naeelah]

Hell, as long as we're giving recs:

 

Check out the Erebos room spray (which I am currently obsessed with). The main notes are lavender and smoky vanilla. It's gorgeous and you could use it as perfume if you mist it over your clothes and hair (although it can stain fabric so take care). You could also use it in a scent locket.

[jayne]

 

Amber, incense, smoke. Grass and woods (sandlewood, cedar, cyprus). Vetiver. Cardamom. Vanilla. Lavender. Citrus, but not too heavy.

 

Even though this should go into the reccomendations sub forum, but since I asked, I'll tell ya...

 

TKO for your lavender and vanilla love.

Lyonesse for amber/vanilla

Sol Invictus 09 (it is limited edition and is coming down Feb 2 and no...you can't get samples of it) for amber/citrus/resin

Liz (out of the Hellboy collection) for your vanilla and smoke cravings. It also has leather. It's beautiful and one of my favs.

Inez out of the Carnavale Diabolique collection for amber as well

MME Moriarity Misfortune Teller (which is a representation of Beth herself) out of the CD as well for musky/plummy/resinous goodness.

Amsterdam for a sweet wet grass with a bit of "not-in-your-face" floral.

 

I'm not big on sandlewood (it hates me), vetiver, or cardamom (I hate it).

 

I don't know how I missed this before. I've been kind of overwhelmed with responses. I'm trying to get to everyone but I keep getting distraction. But thanks so much for writing all this up! Some of those combinations sound really fantastic. I'll definitely investigate them.

[seadragon]

I don't think Luca Turin (or his wife) is exactly unbiased, he is a high level exec at a company that synthesizes odorants after all.

 

Anyone who thinks the big perfume houses like Guerlain employ in-house perfumers who view scents as art should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Scent-Inside...4195&sr=8-2

 

Most perfume houses farm out perfume design to 6 large international companies, that design the vast majority of scents and flavorings on the market. That same person might have also designed the scent in the latest laundry detergent to hit grocery store shelves.

 

Also, in addition to marketing campaigns, fancy package design, name brands and endorsements, a lot of the cost of commercial perfumes is trying to recoup the R&D costs of failed perfumes.

Edited January 27, 2010 by seadragon

[Lorelai1945]

Something else I just thought of- I know Beth is not testing her oils, blends, or materials on animals, or using animal-derived products. I can't be sure with department store brand perfumes.

[kebechet]

Posting here against my better judgment. I don’t want to be perceived as shit-stirring in any way; that isn’t my intent.

 

The bulk of our reasons for not using prefab oils stem from their incompatibility with our vision for the company. They do not comply with my personal tastes, first of all, and Black Phoenix is really an extension of me… of what I enjoy, what I love, and what interests me. I don’t compromise my vision, even if it seems idiotic or Velveeta-cheap to others, and that goes from the concepts themselves through to the components we use to create our products. To me, it isn’t possible to achieve the aesthetic effects I’m trying for with prefab materials. I don’t want this to sound artsy-fartsy and high-handed – its just a fact: they aren’t conducive to me creating the scents that I want to create. If we went with most any prefab company on the market, it would be quickly evident, and the uniqueness of our product – which may be offensive, but is incontestable – would be nonexistent.

 

There are many reasons that we do not use prefab oils to make our scents, and the least ethics-based one is that, quite bluntly, our customer base is not stupid. If we ever began using prefab candle fragrance oils in our products, our customers, who are intelligent, enthusiastic consumers, many of whom use prefab oils themselves for b&b crafts, would figure it out. It’s that simple. I respect our customers, many, MANY of whom I consider close personal friends, and my life is enriched a hundred-fold by the community that has grown around Black Phoenix and the friendships that I would never, ever have made had it not been for that community. Cutting corners with regards to my work is unethical to me, and there is no benefit whatsoever in bullshit. Our customers are not fools, and I have no intention of compromising my company’s integrity by taking shortcuts.

 

I am in no way slamming people that use prefab scents for crafting bath and body products. That’s what they’re there for! They’re just not appropriate for the way Black Phoenix tackles perfumery, is all.

 

Upwards and onwards…

 

We purchase component oils from many, many small companies because we believe in small business, and we want to help people like us. We used to extract oils in-house YEARS ago, but it became impossible to continue in that vein and still fill orders in a timely manner and keep costs down. We could outsource to a fragrance chemist, our costs would be significantly reduced, and it would alleviate all of our problems with batch consistency and component issues. That, too, doesn’t fit into my vision for Black Phoenix. I like working with my hands, being immersed in the concepts and the scents. If we outsourced to a fragrance chemist, my life would be much easier, but I would derive very little personal joy from my work. I don’t consult fragrance wheels, or worry too much about harmonious or traditional top, middle, or base notes. I’m sure that to most perfumers this sounds idiotic. That’s ok. Creating scents is one of the great joys of my life, and even if we had no customers whatsoever, I would still do this because it is what I love to do. To me, outsourcing our needs to a fragrance chemist would be tantamount to me hiring a copywriter and a marketing consultant. This outsourced creative team could write words for Black Phoenix, create a sophisticated-yet-edgy image for Black Phoenix, and this team of experts could tell me exactly what scents are going to be fashionable next season. I will venture a guess that they wouldn’t have given a green light to Black Annis or Gore Shock. But BPAL would be soulless… dead. Black Phoenix is my way of expressing myself, and I do things the way I do it because it brings me joy to do so. We create everything, words and scents, from the ground up, while supporting other small businesses and using the safest possible ingredients.

 

And onto the next point…

 

In order to maintain a consistent price point for our customers, we had to calculate an average cost per bottle. The range of the prices for component oils is staggering. Orange oil and rose otto are galaxies apart in price. In truth, there are some GCs and some LEs that we do lose money on, and some that make a significant profit. It evens out. I could calculate the precise cost to manufacture each bottle, but that would not only make the whole catalogue a pain in the fucking ass for our customers (we would have to calculate SAMPLE PRICES individually, too, ffs) but the prices themselves would fluctuate often because the market price for oils changes based on everything from the quality of a crop in a season to supply and demand. Frankly, we would go nuts, it would be an accounting shitswamp, and our customers would be incredibly frustrated. Better that we take a loss here and there and just price things on an average.

 

How do we keep costs down? We don’t have a huge advertising budget, and our choices of advertising outlets and sponsorship programs reflect our feelings about working with and supporting other small businesses. We don't pay for celebrity endorsements or hire marketing firms to polish our image and push our products. We don't pay for placement in television or movie spots. We don’t have fancy packaging or ornate bottles. We print most of our labels in-house, and do all of our own ads. We are hands-on in every aspect of the work, from concept to customer service and shipping. Our prices are not elevated much above the cost to manufacture. We generate a living wage for us and for our employees and provide our staff with benefits like health and dental while keeping prices reasonable for our customers.

 

And on and on and on…

 

I saw some mention of corporate charity work, ours and others. I don’t want to go around slapping my ass over this in a fit of pride, but I do have something to say about it. Charity, to me, is a labor of love. It’s not something that should come easily, and it isn’t something done for props or for a tax deduction. I know a lot of corporations donate to charities out of compassion, kindness, and genuine altruism. I truly respect that. I am fiercely proud of all the work that we have done for the CBLDF, Red Cross, UNICEF, BatCon international, the Orangutan Foundation UK, Hero Initiative, AIDS Project LA, Habitat For Humanity, the SPCA, and other charitable organizations. We take a considerable financial hit every time we run a fundraiser or do a charity scent or series. It costs us far more during the scent creation process, especially since we do not outsource, than we are able to recuperate. In this economy, taking the profits off of the oils for the Haiti fundraiser is very hard on us, but we do it because we give a fuck, and because life is a shitty, shabby thing if you don’t use your good fortune to give back a little. Not being all We’re So Fucking Awesome, but we donated more to charity in 2008 and 2009 than my fucking salary. Like I said, I am damn proud of what we do to help others, and I am damn proud to be associated with individuals like Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, George Perez, and Molly Crabapple who are so giving of their time, their intellectual property, and their resources to promote charity and goodwill.

 

I’m all about the tl;dr today.

 

I know Black Phoenix isn’t for everyone. It isn’t meant to be. Black Phoenix is for… me. I don’t mean that in a selfish way, but it’s true. I do what I love because I love it and I do it the way I want to do it, period, and if someone doesn’t like it, that’s really ok. It doesn’t diminish the happiness I feel when I’m able to create things that I find beautiful, interesting, or disturbing based on concepts that move me. It thrills me more than I can say that there are other people out there that like what we do and that I’m able to share the things I love with them. But it is also fine with me when someone doesn't dig what I do.

 

Have I covered everything? If not, I apologize. If I’m a little terse in this post, I apologize for that, too. I’m not keen on having my company’s integrity called into question. You can say you don’t like our stuff, you can snerk at how prolific we are, and you’re always welcome to dislike my choices in theme or the scents themselves. All that is ample fodder for derision, I suppose. But I won’t stand for shadows being cast over our shop’s integrity. I like being able to look in the mirror and respect the person I see there. I’m never going to intentionally do anything to jeopardize my own peace of mind or jeopardize the reputation of the good, hard working, honest people that are employed at Black Phoenix. We work too fucking hard for that. I want my daughter to be able to look at what her family does for a living and be proud.

 

Now I’m going to back out of this thread because, in all honesty, I’m juggling a ton of work, problems arising from the absence of DSL access at the lab, and a toddler, and I don’t have the energy to do much else right now. The Little Demoness is demanding my attention, and I can’t keep the Queen of the Household waiting!

 

(ETA -- VF, you're right. We don't test on animals, and we do everything we can to ensure that we never work with companies that test on animals.)

 

(ETA -- I prefer cake to pie, but I'm split on the ninja / pirate issue.)

[Amoraexcena]

$25 on perfume samples is a luxury for me, so it does matter.

You know... I would really take what you said more seriously if BPAL didn't produce hundreds of fragrances every year for the exact same (very low) price. The people on Luca Turin's blog had a point about the basic logistics/economics of it all. I'm trying to do the reading suggested by some very nice commenters but so far I'm still left uneasy.

I believe there's some discrepancy here between what you are saying. So is BPAL luxurious-expensive-overpriced for you, at $25 for 6 ml? Or is it all produced at the "same very low price"?

If it is really too expensive for you, then I recommend you really research what blends to try. Go to the Sales pages where people will sell pre-tested General Catalogue scents for as low $1 each sometimes. I will be happy to swap with you actually, most of the imps you ordered I use regularly.

 

I can't imagine BPAL being "too cheap," just take a look at the economics. There is no "marketing" division at BPAL; they don't hire Charlize Theron or Catherine Zeta-Jones, they don't invest millions in commercial production and airtime. How do we find out about BPAL? Probably word of mouth. Cost? $0. And of course, there is the "brand name" price mark-up of the haute couturier perfume houses.

 

You mention the free samples you recieve at department stores and boutiques. I also love to collect these (so portable!)- I spend thousands of dollars yearly on skincare and fragrances at The Bay (local department store) so I don't feel guilty at all. And I certainly shouldn't, because these samples and "free gifts" are all considered part of advertising and incentive, and sample costs are incorporated into the costs of production, which basically means I (consumers) pay for it in the long run.

Because of a high production cost, each perfume must sell else the firm (the brand) sustains heavy financial losses. If they released more perfumes, there is a)less "hype" b)market saturation and demand does not keep up, "failed" perfume recuperative costs, c)more production costs of bottle design, packaging, etcetcetc. Don't forget, there is also a huge company that has to be financed behind all this- the many levels of management and shareholders(investment debt and interest) that have to be paid out, unlike a family-owned business like BPAL where the owner=creator. Big-name brands certainly *could* release a wider variety, I'm sure they possess the talent. But that means hiring more Keira Knightleys and even more commercial costs. Beth (and Brian) can afford to be creative because there arn't any crazy costs they incur with every scent they want to release.

FYI: Knightley got 500,000 pounds for a 1-year contract with Chanel, Theron recieved around $5 million for 3 years with Dior.

 

$15 for 5ml. My Miss Dior Cherie was $100 for 100ml. $3/ml versus $1/ml. BPAL is more expensive per ml, but it really lasts me MUCH longer because it has less fillers, of this there is no question. I spray on Burberry London about 3~4 times, probably the equivalent of about 2~3ml. I need barely a drop of my favourite BPAL, Black Lace. While I love both kinds of fragrance still, lately I have been spending increasingly more on BPAL than on commercial perfumes. This completely comes down to preference and skin chemistry. To me, BPAL is certainly worth the difference in price. I also love the concepts and variety it offers.

 

BPAL does not actually produce hundreds of new fragrances a year. As others have said, it "resurrects" old favourites from past years, sometimes every year -Snow White, Rose Red etc. The Lab will also expand on a "classic" such as Snake Oil, and make variations -there is a Snake Pit, SO's many little cousin-snakes, and limited editions such as Womb Furie (Lupercalia) and Cake Smash (forum-only) that will also use this popular oil as a background or base. I'm sure you know Dior does a somewhat similar reproduction scheme with Poison. So rest assured, Beth's talents are not being overly stretched.

And anyway, if you considered how many fragrances a year LVMH produces, which owns Dior, Marc Jacobs, Guerlain, Benefit, Fresh, Acqua di Parma, Kenzo, and Givenchy, then BPAL probably isn't actually that far off.

 

BPAL is made from EOs, distillates, accords, bouquets. It is all-natural and even vegan except for honey, though with your skin chemistry that allows for alcohol etc, I don't really see why it makes too much of a difference. The Lab has produced some of its own "basic building block molecules" although to my understanding this is minimal nowadays, with such a large fanbase and ever-growing orders to fulfil, they are supplied with components from trusted sources and Beth makes her own accords and bouquets. There used to be a "single-note" line, jayne. We used to be able to buy Beth's fabulous, original accords that smelled very different from other companys' single notes- this was discontinued a while back. There is a huge premium on this single-note line nowadays, and they are only available occasionally on Ebay for a lot more than their original prices. Beth's Vanilla Single Note would probably auction well over $100.

 

edited for grammar :x

Edited January 27, 2010 by Amoraexcena

[IridiumFlash]

Thank you for the very detailed posting, kebechet. You rock!

Edited January 27, 2010 by IridiumFlash

[Tramp]

Bravo Beth. Your integrity is a huge part of why I love BPAL so much.

[starfish327]

i think that may be the most epic response to any internet thread i've read, anywhere...

[Lorelai1945]

Beth! Aside from the fact that I am absolutely obsessed with the Lab's products (I'm wearing Tombstone, Snake Oil, and Under the Harvest Moon right now just because I can!), another reason I am so much in support of the company is because of their integrity and that it's not about big name bullshit. They really do the things they say they do. Hopefully it's been made very clear that Bpalers are loyal and aren't swayed by the random naysayer who just want to bring a good thing down to their level. I feel good giving my fun money to people who I know are truly good people with values and beliefs I can stand behind.

[Invidiana]

i think that may be the most epic response to any internet thread i've read, anywhere...

 

Not to mention the classiest.

 

I don’t consult fragrance wheels, or worry too much about harmonious or traditional top, middle, or base notes. I’m sure that to most perfumers this sounds idiotic. That’s ok. Creating scents is one of the great joys of my life, and even if we had no customers whatsoever, I would still do this because it is what I love to do. To me, outsourcing our needs to a fragrance chemist would be tantamount to me hiring a copywriter and a marketing consultant. This outsourced creative team could write words for Black Phoenix, create a sophisticated-yet-edgy image for Black Phoenix, and this team of experts could tell me exactly what scents are going to be fashionable next season. I will venture a guess that they wouldn’t have given a green light to Black Annis or Gore Shock. But BPAL would be soulless… dead.

 

I feel you, Beth. In the process of writing my novel while doing my master's, I've gotten hammered by professors questioning the publishing/selling potential of X or Y; in the end, though, it's my love of the craft that wins out, and I go with my gut, with what I enjoy writing. I don't follow how-to books or stick to rigid plot and character formulas. In the end, if I know I'm enjoying it, I have faith it will keep my future readers interested when it's finished. I feel that's exactly what you've done with your company, and what you're trying to convey in that post: your love of the craft that is evident in the final product has made others love your craft as well. Whether or not people like Luca agree with your perfumes' methods and concepts does not affect their undeniable quality and artistry.

 

Love of Lovecraft, however, is a different story...hehe

Edited January 27, 2010 by Invidiana

[girlygirl]

Bravo Beth. Your integrity is a huge part of why I love BPAL so much.

 

I can only echo what Tramp said. You are a class act, Beth. Except you're not acting; you're the real deal.

Edited January 27, 2010 by girlygirl

[beachbabealways]

Excellent post Beth!

 

BPAL is for me and I have over 200 bottles to prove it.

 

Love the perfumes, love the company, love Beth, Puddin, Lilith, Brian and everyone else at the lab & love what the company stands for.

 

They work their butts off just so I (and so many others) can smell fabulous!!

[DeltaCat]

Thank you Beth, Puddin, Brian , and the other labbies for making perfume personal. The love and diligence in the labels alone show how bpal is more then just perfume. I can't even fathom describing the love and care put into each bottle of bpal perfume. For this...I salute you!

[persianmouse]

Beth, goddamn I love you and you are so fucking awesome.

 

And I think that's what got people's fur up at some of jayne's comments. Because they weren't just "I don't like BPAL.", they were dispersions on the character and ethics Beth and all the Labbies. Passive little insinuations and innuendo based on nothing but rumor and anonymous blog posts.

 

That shit ain't right.

 

Spend a little time on the forums, and you might realize that Beth is one of the last people you ever need to suspect of cheating you. This isn't a case of Cult of Personality, Beth is genuinely a good and talented person. Even with the buffer of the Internet, if you're a crazy douchebag, its eventually going to be made clear. And the reverse is also true, when you are fucking awesome, that is also going to made clear.

 

Like it just was a few posts above this one.

 

 

[mistiwebster]

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, Beth, fucking BRAVO.

 

:clap: :clap:

[Geminirubyshoes]

Beth, goddamn I love you and you are so fucking awesome.

 

 

And I second this!

[naeelah]

I hate that you had to reply, but thanks for clarifying, beth. Your reply should answer all questions and doubts that newcomers might have.

 

Even i'd wondered about pre-blended accords, so it's nice to have that mystery unraveled. Not that I ever thought bpal used mass market pre-fab blends, or ONLY used accords purchased from other blenders, but for all I know, you know an indie blender who makes a fabulous amber accord, and using it helped control cost -- know what I mean? (And even if that were true, who cares? The quality and artistry of a bpal product speaks for itself.)

[starfish327]

(And even if that were true, who cares? The quality and artistry of a bpal product speaks for itself.)

 

that's actually part of what's been bugging me about this all day. even if they were pre-blended, they aren't just being dumped in a bottle. it's like being upset with someone for using pre-packaged dyes or pre-prepped blanks for indie dyed yarns...it's what you do with it that matters*.

 

*i am and always will be a fiber nut if the fact that i keep gravitating towards those comparisions are any suggesting.

[naeelah]

that's actually part of what's been bugging me about this all day. even if they were pre-blended, they aren't just being dumped in a bottle. it's like being upset with someone for using pre-packaged dyes or pre-prepped blanks for indie dyed yarns...it's what you do with it that matters*.

 

*i am and always will be a fiber nut if the fact that i keep gravitating towards those comparisions are any suggesting.

 

Exactly! But now we know without a doubt that the lab makes all its own accords, so we can bask even further in their awesome 1337 skillz.

 

(And I guess you haven't run into too many crazy quilt artists! Some of those people act like you're a total hack if you don't harvest the berries to craft your own dye and do everything short of weave your own fabric. )