I've ordered from H&EE. Some of her scents work for me, some don't. Happens with every company, and Michele's is no different in that regard.

I weigh in now and then when I have something to say. Sometimes I just watch and shake my head.

I, personally, could continue to believe the Punani/Underpants thing was coincidence without the addition of Thirteen. If she had a blend from 1991, as she claims, that was called Thirteen, why didn't she market it earlier? I'm sure that her business has been around since at least January, when the Friday the 13th before this one occured, hasn't it?

The fact that she gives out "upgrades" bugs me too. I haven't done any study of those who've received them vs. those who've complained about the company. I have a feeling it would be interesting if I did, but I don't know that for a fact, so I can only surmise.

But I really take issue with the sneaking around and trying to lie about whether she had a duplicate account or not. I shouldn't be surprised that people think the mods would make that up around here, but I am.

All of this came to light right about the same time that I made arrangements for a final bottle from H&EE. Had it happened before, I wouldn't have bothered. As it is, I won't be supporting her company with my money any longer.

Thanks for putting this post together, f_s.

FS, thanks for this wonderful post! You said everything that I knew but didn't want/have the time to do. 5 stars for you

If anyone cares more about the admin-y side of things (a little about how we find duplicate accounts and a summary of what happened with this specific duplicate account), check out my blog.

I shouldn't be surprised that people think the mods would make that up around here, but I am.

You'd think by now, I would be used to it, too

Repeat after me: Ethics matter.

I've never ordered from this etailer, but will I in the future based on what I've read? No. Ethics are a very big factor in my decisions.

And by the way, releasing a scent on Friday the 13th is a marketing concept & can be defended as intellectual property if it hasn't been done before. So yeah, BPAL could file suit if they were so inclined, for that and more, if they were to really get their knickers in a knot over all this. I'm sure Beth has been so advised.

The question that occurs to me is: Why doesn't Michelle just think up her own new ideas instead of recycling Beth's? Wouldn't that be a lot more fun for her? [OK, two questions]

Thanks, f_s, very articulate blog, really impressive

The question that occurs to me is: Why doesn't Michelle just think up her own new ideas instead of recycling Beth's? Wouldn't that be a lot more fun for her? [OK, two questions]

Or anyone else's, really. You would have thought that a perfumer with 20 years' experience would have far more fun creating their own scents rather than duping other people's. If you really want to recreate other people's perfumes, why not pick ones that are long discontinued, like Serena at Ava Luxe?

FilShad, we've spoken at length about this previously, but I wanted to give you my support. This is an excellent blog entry which has opened up a fascinating debate relatively untainted by drah-ma and emotion.

Thanks for posting this and doing all of that research! When one of my favorite (non H&E) scents turned out to not be what I expected someone recommended H&E to me. But I really couldn't in good faith order from a company who seemed to be engaging in rather shady practices. Just from reading the thread they are apparent. But I don't always believe what I read on a forum so I waited, and things just got worse.

Instead of posting my questions here I figured I would go to the new H&E forum, for a while I was able to read it but then you had to apply to the forum by submitting your email addy "for approval". The reason given was to avoid spam-bots (I think) but that makes no sense. And I refuse to apply to a forum that will "let me know if I've been approved". Not good for business.

And the fact that the mods got the blame for "clustering/swarming" around the thread to cause drama? I view it as the mods being aware of the problems F_S points out long before the posters did.

And add me to the paranoid but for a few weeks it seems as if the H&E thread was *constantly* bumped up. That irritated me to no end, it seemed as if it was planned, to make sure it was always on the top of the page. And now I read about alternate accounts and using other members accounts...

*gah* I know I'm rambling, but one of the things I like about the retail therapy forum is not just that it gets me addicted to so many products but it's a good way to get feedback about e-tailers. And I think I have gotten all of the feedback I need about H&E.

I've been very silent regarding this whole situation, just silently sitting back watching everything unfold.

And every time I read the H&E thread I am reminded of a similar thread from last fall... the Atropa's Cottage (egad... I don't even know if I spelled that right!) thread.

Sure, they have a lot of differences, but they also have a lot of similarites, most notably the drama related to a company that came out of nowhere, with a lot of "unique" blends under their belt, and very fierce supporters who refused to acknowledge for the longest time that yes, there really was a problem with these blends... whether they bore similarities to popular BPAL blends or popular pre-blended bath and body ingredient oils, or whether they were named the same as already existing popular scents by other companies, or whether they infringed on trademark or copyright laws by their name, there most certainly was a problem.

A lot of the H&E supporters keep saying her oils are nothing like Beth's, but there are several with identical or very similar names, and others with identical or very similar noted listed. Yet they are nothing alike? I am sure the supporters of H&E are right... they are nothing like BPAL, because BPAL has depth. Personality. Character. And class.

I had a point in this reply. I think I lost it though, and I should be sleeping since I have a million things to do tomorrow, but before I post this comment, I just want to say that I really wish people would stop being blinded by the massive amount of freebies tossed into their mailboxes long enough to really see that there is something to this ordeal.

F_S, thank you for your well-researched, well-thought-out post.

There goes that "you're getting free products and it's not a good thing!" theory again. What the hell? Seriously. I'm not being blinded by anything. In all of my orders from H&E I've gotten 1 free product per order and 2 for a very large order - $150+. A small bar of soap, or a 5mL of a perfume I didn't even like doesn't "blind" me or others to anything.

I think, even if you think everything else is shady, pointing to the fact that Michele includes FREEBIES with *every* package (not just the lost/late/missing items ones) as something that is somehow inherently wrong is just blatantly ridiculous!!

PK, I'm not really interested in listening to the same thing from you over and over. You've had your say. Repeatedly. I don't know when you decided that this H&EE issue is your personal fight with the entire forum, but it's time for that to stop now.

Don't post again until you have something new to say.

And yes, I feel that I am perfectly well within my rights to say this since you took it upon yourself to make an announcement in one of your earlier posts here that you don't want any more people coming into the H&EE thread to stir up drama. You don't even own that thread. But this is my blog.

Sorry, I hadn't brought up the freebie thing before. So it's not a repeat. But I will go since you requested it.

And no I don't "own" the H&E thread, it wasn't an announcement, it was a request. No one has to follow it as pointed out by the mods already.

As a general announcement to everyone reading this though: I would appreciate if people didn't come into the H&E thread solely to create drama.

In what way is that not an announcement? I was even using your word.

I did read what you wrote in the Official WHY Thread, and it was about freebies. And a lot of what you have written in this blog has been stuff that you have already said in the H&EE thread. If you've already said something somewhere else, you don't need to re-state it here. Assume that anyone interested in this discussion has seen it. This blog does not need to re-hash every piece of drama from the H&EE thread and elsewhere.

You don't need to censor yourself, you need to tone it down. That's all I'm asking.

The WHY thread was written AFTER the blog post.

And okay fine, I used the word announcement... I also used the word appreciate. It wasn't some "God has spoken" post like you made it out to be.

But anyhow... like I said, leaving now. Agree to disagree with you. Thank you for the discussion f_s. I appreciate you not cursing at me.

But anyhow... like I said, leaving now. Agree to disagree with you. Thank you for the discussion f_s. I appreciate you not cursing at me.

Okay, as long as you realize you don't need to leave.

See, the problem is that you're taking this issue personally, and you're obviously very emotionally involved. But you can't come in here and be that upset because eventually you're going to upset me, and then I'll fly off the handle, and an enraged filigree_shadow is not pleasant for anyone. (Trust me.) Also, it seems like you desperately want people to agree with things you say, and when they don't you raise the same point again to see if you get any takers the second time. Not saying I blame you for that, but when I feel like I'm reading the same thing over and over I stop paying attention to it.

In this blog you've disagreed with nearly everything I said, you tried to poke holes in my logic, you've called me out on pedantic details that were really too trivial to matter, and you said that my arguments don't make sense. In the H&EE thread, you said you don't think I'm right. I get it. You don't need to say it again. And by now I'm willing to stipulate that whenever anyone new in this blog brings up something else that casts Michele/H&EE in an even remotely negative light, you don't believe it and you don't agree.

(ETA: I was using the legal definition of stipulate there, in case that wasn't clear.)

I can honestly say that I'm not sure what to think at this point. I've never been on the "other side of the fence" during one of these situations, and I'm not really one for adding to drama-fests, so even if I *did* have a concrete opinion, if it wasn't mind-blowing, I doubt I'd share it.

That being said, however, I feel I must weigh in on this pervasive theme - these insinuations - that HAEE customers are being bribed with extra product in exchange for positive feedback.

As one of those individuals who has both received a gift and reviewed several products favourably, I find it terribly offensive and almost slanderous, actually. Aside from a few order-related emails, I don't know Michele personally, and yet now I have to "watch what I say" with regards to what freebies I may have received or what products I may be enjoying 'cause if I don't, I run the risk of being labeled as some kind of shady accomplice, pimping HAEE in return for perfume KICKBACKS!

I shouldn't think I'll be talking much in the HAEE thread anymore anyway - not after a previous poster mentioned that the constant chatter/bumping in the HAEE thread seemed "planned" - like it was some kind of concerted effort (read: CONSIPIRACY) by those of us *in* the thread to keep the HAEE topic visible.

Since when did mud-slinging at other forumites - even the subtle, "wondering aloud" kind - become an accepted part of this discussion?

I think, even if you think everything else is shady, pointing to the fact that Michele includes FREEBIES with *every* package (not just the lost/late/missing items ones) as something that is somehow inherently wrong is just blatantly ridiculous!!

She doesn't, actually, include freebies with every package. I've gotten one from her with no freebies at all. They're free, I didn't complain. But, she does not throw something in for every order.

Just FYI.

Full disclosure: I have purchased from H&EE with no applicable complaint.

I suppose the implication that Michele was bribing people is disturbing, and I have to admit I was confused after reading about people receiving $50 worth of stuff with what amounts to about a $10 order (minus shipping) because when I ordered direct (after obtaining some samples from other members), all I got was one sample of the signature scent, and a decorative bottle that goes for about $3 retail. Now had we not been exposed to all the experiences of other people who got tons of goodies then my reaction would have been in a much more normal context, because the inclusion was typical of most etailers. But my emotional response was much more conflicted, although admittedly that's my own issue, not anyone else's.

Now I understand in a contextual sense that things change, and the types of business practices/decisions that were occurring during the launch of Michele's b&b business had to evolve once she was more established (which happened in a seemingly rapid amount of time). But the purpose of the above was just to attempt to explain why some customers might have felt slighted, given the overall circumstances. It is not to imply that any perceived slight was, in fact, intentional.

And perhaps part of the reason the drama regarding H&EE seems a lot more immediate - than the example of what has happened with sCara and FeMaledictions, for example - is the introduction and relationship that was initially established, resulting in a rather symbiotic link between bpal.org and H&EE, if that makes any sense. Although it appears, given Quantum Spice's investigation, that potential customers might have been also been informed of the business via the NA Lush Forum, but it seems to me that a large part of Michele's customer base comes from this community. Perhaps that is an entirely incorrect assumption, but I think that is what makes this dispute more of a personal one overall than merely that of an etailer who has been a source of customer angst.

I'm a little bit confused why this is such an issue. These etailers make their oils to make a profit, and doing underhanded market research is nothing new in capitalism and nothing worth the fuss that has been made over it. I get the impression that a lot of the people arguing against HAEE haven't yet grasped the concept that the companies that we know and love and communicate with on a daily basis aren't simply churning out perfume oils for their buddies -- they are part of capitalist enterprises that, whether they're backed by kind people or not, want your money.

Apparently looking for consumer trends on the BPAL forums is unacceptable. I fail to see why, given that the information out there is free and the etailer will only make a profit if the information is valuable. This kind of "corporate espionage" happens all the time; HAEE and BPAL don't have enough money to set up focus groups like Coca-Cola or PepsiCo, so they use forums. It may be "unethical" to some, but that's just how things are. Ethics -- ha! This is business.

It seems to be that there is a personal grudge against HAEE in particular, and perhaps that is because the company is, in some ways, in competition with BPAL. There will always be competition in the niche market of etailperfume oils just like there will always be competition between Toyota and Honda. Perhaps I've failed to understand why this issue, which seems to be purely a case of competition for capital, has become so damned personal. The "proof" that the original poster has compiled about HAEE borrowing ideas from BPAL, etc., is entirely speculative and, more importantly, not proof of anything bordering illegality.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if BPAL makes more money this season than HAEE (and I do believe it will,) what's the big bloody fuss?

Accidentally posted twice...

Firstly, Filigree_shadow, you are one brave lady. Thanks for posting this and inviting members in to speak freely. You're pure class, m'dear!

Secondly, I ordered once from HnE and was not happy. The products themselves (perfumes only) didn't work on me because of the almond oil base, which is just a chemistry thing and not something I would even consider blaming Michelle for. What did upset me, however, was the fuss it took to get my order. I think I purchased about 10 samples (I can't remember the exact figure now). After hearing nothing from Michelle for some time, I emailed her to ask what was going on, and was informed that Paypal had been playing up for her and had not sent on my order.

This was a lie. I know it's a lie because I asked her if she'd received my order in the HnE thread here on the forum before her comments were screened, and she confirmed that yes, she had received it. If anyone wants to verify this, I'd suggest politely PMing the mods to check what I'm saying is true; I won't take offense! and hopefully the mods won't mind.

Anyhoo, I was willing to ignore this as long as I got the order. She told me it would be sent in a few days, and I gave it a week to arrive. After a week, I PMed her on her forum to doublecheck the date she'd sent it and ask why it hadn't arrived. She responded with a defensive PM saying that she HAD sent it (implying that I'd accused her of not doing such). I was apologetic, making it clear I hadn't meant to accuse her of anything, and then received a response that, oops, she HAD NOT sent it because of a componant issue, and she would re-send it as soon as possible. Good that I checked, huh? Getting that snarky PM was really worth it. . .

When my order finally arrived, she included two big freebies: lotion and a soap. Despite these, I wasn't happy with the customer service OR the products and so I never ordered again.

Now, with that fully disclosed, I'll give my 2 cents on this whole issue. At first, I was more than willing to defend Michelle and felt that some more devoted BPAL fans were seeing things that weren't there. However, as more and more of these little "misunderstandings" and "accidents" came to light, I started to believe that Michelle was at fault. I also personally don't trust all her claims that packages are getting lost after what I went through, and I think her communication with buyers is pretty bad. Frankly, she's the second worst e-tailer I've dealt with; the first being sCara who I firmly believe would never have sent my order if I hadn't threatened her publically with legal action.

I'll be honest, I sometimes feel that BPAL fans take things too far when defending Beth and her company. I've seen some very spiteful comments snapped at innocent members over a mere misunderstanding before, and I'm sure I will again. BUT the bottom line here is that Michelle broke the forum rules. All the above shady business practices aside, she broke the rules that she agreed to when she joined this forum. Then she purposefully tried to get around restrictions placed on her, which again is against the rules.

Why are people upset with the moderators for doing their jobs? If you like Michelle's products so much, and have the HnE forum to discuss them, why does it matter if people here don't like the products or the company? To be cliched, can't we all get along?

I will say that I think it's wrong to even insinuate that people defending Michelle are doing so because she gives them freebies. That's poor form, ladies and gents, and intellectually dishonest to boot. That said, I also am not comfortable with receiving overtly generous freebies as compensation for bad service; particularly not when it happens repeatedly as it apparently has. But that doesn't mean Michelle is actively bribing buyers to speak well of her here.

The "proof" that the original poster has compiled about HAEE borrowing ideas from BPAL, etc., is entirely speculative and, more importantly, not proof of anything bordering illegality.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if BPAL makes more money this season than HAEE (and I do believe it will,) what's the big bloody fuss?

I didn't say she was doing something illegal. I specifically avoided talking about the IP infringement issue that was raised in the H&EE thread because I don't know anything about law. I just pointed out what Michele was doing, explained how I interpreted it, and said I didn't like it.

OK, so having said that, I wanted to thank you for posting your reply here because you brought up something that I should have clarified earlier. I make purchase decisions based on factors that are important to me, but I know that the same factors are not important to other people. I don't think those other people are wrong or dumb.

I'll give you an example: I have shopped at OfficeMax twice. Both times the sales clerks were rude. When I complained about it to my friend Lynn, she said, "Oh, I could have told you that. I never shop there any more." At that point, I wished she'd told me that before I ever set foot in the OfficeMax. If I had known her opinion beforehand, I would have just driven the extra mile to Office Depot and saved myself some frustration. On the other hand, my friend Ron shops at OfficeMax all the time and doesn't care one whit about the personality of the sales clerks.

Do I think Ron is dumb for shopping at OfficeMax? NO. Not at all. But what I'm looking for in a shopping experience is what Lynn's looking for. We like to be treated nicely. Ron doesn't care about that, he just wants the best prices.

With my original post, I was trying to put my experience out there for other people to see because I didn't see the entirety of Michele's post history until after I'd bought from her twice, and at that point I regretted ever spending money at her site. I was hoping to save like-minded people the same frustration.

I didn't expect everyone to agree with me, and as you can see from the replies to my post, not everyone does. That's fine with me. However, if anyone reading it IS the type of person who would be put off by the same things that put me off, I thought it was important to let them know my opinions and why I feel this way.

This is business.

Except: this forum is NOT business.

While the Lab profits from its existence (especially with the vast reviews area), and they have supported us in the past (such as donating about $1,250* of oils and BPTP items for the raffle and before the raffle), they do not pay our bills. We are an *unofficial* forum, though the Lab has adopted us and we let them post announcements and pretty much whatever they want, because we were created to talk about their products and generally worship at their feet. (Well, the last is an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.)

*Keep in mind, running this forum is incredibly expensive -- their raffle donation doesn't even cover four months of our server's expenses.

This is business.

 

Except: this forum is NOT business.

 

While the Lab profits from its existence (especially with the vast reviews area), and they have supported us in the past (such as donating about $1,250* of oils and BPTP items for the raffle and before the raffle), they do not pay our bills. We are an *unofficial* forum, though the Lab has adopted us and we let them post announcements and pretty much whatever they want, because we were created to talk about their products and generally worship at their feet. (Well, the last is an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.)

 

 

*Keep in mind, running this forum is incredibly expensive -- their raffle donation doesn't even cover four months of our server's expenses.

I don't see how that invalidates what I was saying. So she takes advantage of your pro bono organization -- it's a business strategy that's been done before. As you said yourself, BPAL in essence does the same, though they are obviously authorized and encouraged to. It's a very good marketing tool, message boards and things like this.

Would you accept a company coming here to look at the purchase history or people, what they bought, why, when, etc? That market research borders on privacy issues and is not available anywhere else unless a personal survey was conducted. I personally don't feel comfortable with other companies coming here to look at what people have ordered and what types of things they expect or want out of future perfume. If a company wants info on the latter, they better get the info themselves.

And just to clarify: capitalism does not = shady and underhanded practices nor should anyone feel that because these practices exist that we should somehow take them as a given and accept them. Capitalism is about maximizing the individual which will benefit the whole. Sure, shady practices could fall into this, but they don't have to. If you really want to talk capitalism, this backlash towards the underhanded market research aspect as well as the policy againt the research here is an attempt at the system to correct a wrong, and therefore an important part of a functioning capitalist economy. Capitalism does not support bad business practices in the long term. It's hard to visualize this in the real world as no country is capitalist (including the United States)...but I digress...

Anyways, I think this tangent into the market research aspect is distorting the argument as the main issue with H&E is not this but specific other broken rules...like the dupe account, lying, etc. I think people are starting to forget that.

I'm a little bit confused why this is such an issue. These etailers make their oils to make a profit, and doing underhanded market research is nothing new in capitalism and nothing worth the fuss that has been made over it.

To a certain extent, I agree with you, Tamburlaine. I might quibble a few points.

You are right, it would certainly be nothing new in the world of business that one company checks out the competition. Happens all the time. In point of fact, any new company looking to develop a business plan had best have a very good idea of what their competition is selling (preferably with hard numbers to back it up.) This is done not only so you know what works and sells but so you can differentiate yourself enough from your competition that that you create your own brand identity. You better believe the Lab checks out what their biggest competitors are doing — so they don't accidentally duplicate their efforts. Two companies coming out with a perfume of the same name on the same day? That's just embarassing. It's like showing up to the prom and finding out the girl across the way is wearing the same dress. And if the girl in question has worn the same dress to every dance this year, what excuse do you have for not thinking she'd wear it this time too?

I don't believe market research is a dirty word. I think it's smart. I think it's essential. (Can you tell I've worked in marketing for almost two decades?) I won't condemn any company for wanting to know what their competition is up to, or even for wanting to know that foodie scents seem to sell better than jasmine or that people (at least the people who hang out on these forums) really REALLY like ginger this season. Even with e-tailer restrictions, those sorts of things are not terribly hard to figure out. Go! Take that knowledge and fly! Be a success!

Now I must reiterate that Michele wasn't suspended for "market research" — she was suspended for breaking the rules about duplicate accounts and lying to us when we confronted her about it. No other reason.

However, if we want to address her behavior as it pertains to her presence on this forum, allow me to provide my own opinion:

When someone lies to get information on their competition (which we know happened,) creates polls asking the competition's customer base what kind of perfume they like best (which we know happened,) reads through the review threads for those types of scents (which we know happened,) goes through all the endlessly debated hoops to circumvent forum restrictions placed on her once her e-tailer status was revealed (which we know happened,) and then STILL manages to come out with multiple products that infringe on intellectual property rights and then claims that she didn't know BPAL already had perfumes of the same name?

I don't think that's very good market research.

Nor do I think it's good business (and by "good," I mean successful, not ethical.)

And I find I'm being asked to accept that Michele is a smart businesswoman, with twenty years of experience in the field, and yet unaware enough of the laws the govern her own trade that she didn't know that any and all ambergris possession is illegal in the US or that trademark law makes no distinction between "13" and "THIRTEEN" for the name of a perfume (or for goodness' sakes, that no one on the forums would notice or object to said duplication.) So I'm going to go the other way: I'm not going to criticize Michele for doing market research here on the BPAL forums — I'm going to criticize her for not doing ENOUGH research, because everything she's currently being faulted for has been previously discussed here on the forums, from the issues of IP law to what perfumes BPAL has previously brought to market, to the rules about duplicate accounts. (The only other option I have is the exceedingly distasteful idea that Michele knew the details but deliberately lied about them, ignored them, and chose to purposefully commit IP property theft. Only Michele is ever going to know the truth of her own motives in the matter, so by all means pick the version with which you're most comfortable. For the sake of civility, I prefer to go with the "she should have done more research" version.)

My too-long-to-get-to point is: starting up a new business is tough and I expect and forgive missteps, but only to a point. After that point, I expect people to know their business if they want to keep mine.

Apparently looking for consumer trends on the BPAL forums is unacceptable. I fail to see why, given that the information out there is free and the etailer will only make a profit if the information is valuable. This kind of "corporate espionage" happens all the time; HAEE and BPAL don't have enough money to set up focus groups like Coca-Cola or PepsiCo, so they use forums. It may be "unethical" to some, but that's just how things are. Ethics -- ha! This is business.

I don't think anyone means to discount market research as an important element of a capitalist system, but at the same time, I don't think the fact that it's a normal element of the business world means that we the maintainers (mainly myself, quantum spice, and to some extent the mod staff) have to agree to allow for the forum we built and run to serve as a goldmine of information for people on the look out to profit off of our members. The issue is not so much that Michele would want to see what type of blends people would be hot to buy, it's knowing that those of us in charge feel strongly about reserving that element of the forum for the lab alone and not respecting that. It'd be like if all of my neighbors decided that the pool in my backyard was open for their use since, after all, pools are for swimming. What does it matter that the pool resides on private property and enclosed by a tall fence, who am I to tell them that they can't swim in a swimming pool? We can all agree that that sort of logic is warped right? And that I'd be within my rights to contact the police if said neighbors refused to acknowledge that taking a dip in my backyard without my consent constituted as trespassing, yes?

We tolerate feeding the competition in the less direct way of allowing members to enable each other, but we are not supportive of etailers profiting off our forum in a more proactive fashion. We don't hide that fact. And while we don't expect other business people to like that policy or even agree with it, they have to respect that if they want the privileges of full membership here. Our playground, our rules, and given that they basically get free ad space here by us allowing our members to discuss their business on site, I don't think it's too much to ask.

There may be basic laws of capitalism, but there are also basic principles of what is and isn't allowed to occur on private property. And just like businesses can forbid solicitation on their property, we're within our rights to demand what sort of behavior is and isn't okay from etailers so long as they're on our turf. We have the right to say that we don't put the effort into keeping this place running so that business people, who do not contribute to the maintenance and upkeep of our forum, can mine us for information so that they can increase their own profits.

Sounds perfectly reasonable, right? It's why Michele can get away with, say, not allowing Beth or any friend-of-Beth membership at her forum. Capitalist norms don't trump all there either. I personally wouldn't care if Michele did massive amounts of market research at any unaffiliated forum on the internet that allowed such things. Because it's true, it's not a crime. But denying the right of a site owner to decide what is and is not an approprate use of the fruit of their labor? That's a horse of a different color.