Inanna9

f_s, I'm sincerely sorry if I upset you with comments you interpreted as personal -- they were not constructed with malicious intent, but rather idle cynicism that I've become used to flinging around with little regard. I have a discombobulated sensitivity gauge (not too good with empathy either) but I apologize if I hurt your feelings. .

<dragging this a bit off-topic for a moment>

Maybe it's a Fire sign thing, as I sometimes have the same problem. I grew up in a house of Fire signs, and didn't realize for a long while how the majority of the world didn't share my view that sarcasm and "shut up" were no big deal and nothing personal In fact, most people get the vapors over quite a bit less. But I'm trying. I think that's why I'm constantly throwing "smilies" in with my posts. Not that it helps.

</aaaanyway...like I said, kind of off-topic>

f_s, I've been following this one from the sidelines and I wanted to thank you for laying this out. I'd had some vague notions of the earlier stuff you list, but had had no idea it was so systematic on her part.

And more than that, (as a blustering Fire sign) I really admire how reasoned and calm you have been throughout this entire thing. It's a great example of how one side can keep an emotional matter like this from spiraling out of control.

 

I'm not sure that stifling mod responses is always to the good — there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on a variety of subjects that is currently not available because a mod has to double-check to make sure that they are not seen as dog-piling responses, and if someone else has responded, not reply. (From this you may surmise that quite a bit of discussion has occurred amongst the mod staff about ways to keep this sort of reaction from happening again.) [Edited to add: I'm going to point as a last resort if they refuse to liback to the difference between my response over on Filigree_shadow's blog, and Shrieking Violet's response, to the same comment. We both answered, and we answered in completely different ways. I like what Diana said, and I think she made an excellent point -- but it's not what _I_ would have said, nor in fact what I did say.]

 

Yes, shriekingviolet is the Queen of Logic sometimes, isn't she? I'm often in awe.

I'm glad to hear you guys are discussing this issue, and I'm not surprised, because I do know you care. This is not a perfect analogy, but I feel like I know a little of how you guys feel. All through college I was a waitress at this restaurant until they offered me the assistant manager--and then the general manager--position. Very quickly, I went from being a friend and co-worker to the Big Kahuna, and I found it really difficult at times. It's ridiculous how much you have to watch your language and tone (perhaps the difference between "that is all" and "just setting the record straight, carry on..." ?) and that's in face-to-face conversation--obviously, we all know how much more difficult it is on the net. And it's exactly like you said Macha--you guys take up more "space". Maybe it's possible you might have to grit your teeth and click a "smiley" or two if it means it keeps things from blowing up due to misunderstandings.

And that's the thing I've been thinking about the most (and drawing on my old experience with putting out fires and trying to be the "Hungry-and-Irate-Customer Whisperer"). What is the main goal in terms of your interactions with forum members during these "incidents" that arise? Is it to calm the situation, to put people in their place and make sure they know where they are wrong, or hopefully both? Both would be great, but people being the stubborn, sometimes defensive creatures that they are, I think you guys may have to choose which one is more important on a case-by-case basis. There are a couple of times when I watched from the sidelines and thought, "darn, if they would just say 'insert generic phrase of neutral sympathy here, why don't you email the Lab (or whoever) at insert address?'. Repeat as necessary, if they refuse to listen send them a pm with a threat to warn, and maybe the whole thing could be neutralized? (I actually have a specific example in mind with this, but I'm not getting specific for fear of looking like I'm dragging out old dramas or something).

But when you get a big, back and forth arguement instead, well...I don't know. I'm going to try and wrap this up instead of going further (don't ask me how my posts get so long...they just do ). And maybe I just have a different (and inaccurate?) idea of what moderators are supposed to do. I keep thinking, "moderation" and "moderate" are the key words, although that's not to say you guys shouldn't be able to dole out a good smackdown when it's warranted. But like you lamented, Macha--it's not fair, I agree, but the more often you do it, the more defensive and perhaps resentful people feel. Perceptions get warped and then things kindle too easily.

But I feel bad, because I'm making you guys sound like you're terrible, horrible shrews, and you're completely not. The very fact that you're willing to discuss and consider this shows what a great board this is. Other boards might just say, "put up or shut up and leave". But if everyone is truly disturbed about the dramas that occasionally erupt, then at the very least, I'd start with designating a couple of mods per breakout--and it sounds like that's what you all are trying to do. Just riffing here, but maybe having a Drama Blog to send people off to would be a good, neutral-territory sort of thing? (er, maybe don't call it the Drama blog) This place certainly seems more conducive to exchanging long posts with windbags like me

And I am all done telling you how to do your jobs now.

That is all

*ding ding ding*

And Macha gets to be the winner of my response post! (seriously, thanks--it's been looking for a home ) <--- In case it's not coming across properly, that was all totally snark-free. I'm not upset here. In fact I'd love to discuss this and have it over and done with. I like all of you mod-people (I have no idea what y'all think of me--for all I know you guys can't stand me--but that's the breaks of having a semi-big mouth when it comes to this stuff, and I accept that). Just know that I'm not bringing this up out of hostility in any way.

I will preface this by saying that in terms of rules, policies, IP issues, etc., I think you guys have been in the right and very reasonable in your enforcement measures. My only issue is with occasionally the manner in which it is done, and nothing more.

I can't fix my links, so if you want to see the posts to which I'm trying to link you'll have to scroll down. sorry

Okay, so moderators, double-standards and the notion of power...here we go: just to set the record straight, the numbers I gave as an example of the "bully perception" threshold were three, four, and five, so considering we had three and at one time four involved, I don't think I was exaggerating. The specific incident I had in mind at the time of my post was a different one and involved six mods by the time I finally spoke up. At that point this was, by the way, the only time I'd ever entered the fray in the H&E thread. andrabell posted a reminder in the thread that people not use the term frimp for non-bpal products. On paper it sounds great, and was perfectly within in the description of her duties. But it quoted Crescentmoon's post (who is a relative newbie), so it gave the appearance it was directly addressing her, and it also had what several perceived as a snippy tone, one that I know I would've felt a little embarassed to be the recipient of (that's some of that mod-power thing you guys may forget you have sometimes--that sort of thing is going to vary from person to person, but who can tell who is thick-skinned and who isn't?).

An aside: I'm not saying andrabell meant it in a snippy way, only andrabell knows that. She seems very adored by her friends and I imagine she is an incredibly nice person to her friends. If she doesn't want to be perceived as rude, especially in the course of moderation duties, she may want to consider refraining from closing her posts with "that is all." I've always seen it used in a light-hearted but snarky context, like for example of TelevsionWithoutPity, and if you use it in a serious one, it has the potential for looking, well....snarky.

Okay, so what followed (after PilotKitten--admittedly IMO--had a very hostile and over-the-top reaction) was eventually six moderators coming in to defend andrabell's post, and IP stuff, and who's being rude to who, etc. At one point they were quoting each other's post with "clapping" emoticons, which is just short of coming in to hi-five each other after some "oh, snap" moment. This is getting long enough, so I'll just leave it at that example, but I mean seriously...you guys are mods: is that really necessary, and can you see how that could be perceived as intimidating?

I know you guys are people too, and I'm not unsympathetic--I would've answered clover's post about that in the H&E thread this morning if I'd had time. And like I said, I like you guys, I don't think you're evil or tyrants, or anything like that. This is the only issue I've ever had with this board here, and I think you all do a terrific job. But the fact is is that you're not like everyone else in terms of your role here. I know there's a double-standard when it comes to your freedom to post and participate here; there's also a real (and also a perceived) imbalance of power. A certain amount of discretion may just be the trade-off for taking on a "mod hat".

You're all so freaking articulate you only really need one or two of you at a time to hold your own in these things, anyway. Plus, it seems to me that it would serve Beth and BPAL better if it didn't look like people who cause trouble--whether through accidental or intentional asshattery--get the Goon Squad sicced on them. That's how stuff winds up on Fandom Wank (not from here, but you know what I mean....).

And no, I'm not calling you Goons! I was being colloquial. And making a point that you run the risk of looking like bullies. I don't think you're bullies--I think you care about BPAL and this forum and Beth. This is probably my years of customer service stuff kicking in, but I don't see the harm of dialing it back just a little when it comes to these "kerfluffle" things.

I would like to know your thoughts, but I'm going to cut this off at ten-thousand words or whatever I'm at for the moment. Now, if I can only write this much for NaNoWriMo, I'll be all set

He's beautiful! Love that gorgeous head of hair. What a big, strong boy he is too! Congratulations

omg, I know I'm way late to this party (keep forgetting to check the blogs), but I had to chime in and let you know that could soooo out-geek you on this, Macha. If you ever want to have dorky writing habits dance-off, let me know

She looks great. And tough, yeah. That's fantastic you have the ability to render your characters like that. Do you feel like you get pretty close to how you envision them? And does it take years to learn these graphics programs? This kind of thing is on my semi-short list of Stuff I Want to Learn.

Just wandered back in to check out the blogs today so this comment is a bit on the late side. But I thought I'd lend some moral support, since I know a little of where you're at with this. I've invested two years in this project of mine, so I dread how I would handle it if I didn't finish--but frankly, I feel like giving up. At least I do today. I'll snap out of it--and don't you give up either It will simply take as long as it takes.

If ever start a blog here, it will be to whine incessantly about my stupid book, with the hope that there are others out there willing to commiserate. In the meantime, if you ever need to gripe and moan for a bit, I'm your girl